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Talk:Guardian (Klingon)
Merge Shouldn't this just be merged with Followers of Kahless? It's just two names for the same group. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 14:32, February 1, 2019 (UTC) :Oppose, we don't know it's the same group from the very scarce information we have. The guardians might be a more select group among the monks of Boreth. -- Capricorn (talk) 15:57, February 5, 2019 (UTC) Even if they might be one, for now the actual articles outright state that they are the same thing. So either they should be merged or the articles should be reedited if there actually is any evidence that the terms are not synonymous. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 01:28, February 6, 2019 (UTC) :You don't need evidence that they are not related, the absence of evidence that they are related is enough to keep them seperate. That kind of prudence leaves the reader with the option to form their own opinions. -- Capricorn (talk) 07:26, February 6, 2019 (UTC) The current articles outright state that they're the same thing, though. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 15:28, February 6, 2019 (UTC) :Then the current articles aren't completely up to snuff. -- Capricorn (talk) 09:24, February 7, 2019 (UTC) :: Then I might recommend fixing it. --Alan (talk) 14:52, February 13, 2019 (UTC) :Done that. I think Followers of Kahless, Guardian (Klingon), and High Cleric (newly created) now all have the information they are due. I've not yet removed the merge suggestion because I want to leave it to other discussion participants to judge if these changes are satisfactory. -- Capricorn (talk) 14:41, February 28, 2019 (UTC) :: Here are some things to consider: :: ::A) Worf: "Boreth. The Followers of Kahless await his return there. To Klingons, there is no more sacred place." ::* Later this comment was reiterated, when Worf recalls "Kahless pointed to a star in the sky and said, 'Look for me there, on that point of light. " Thereafter, Koroth, replied: "So here we are, on a world circling that distant point of light." That would suggest that the Guardians (see below [D']) established Boreth, as they also would have transported and maintained all the sacred texts, and are also among the High Clerics living there. ::B) 'Koroth: "You know...(''turns to others) The story of the sword is known only to the High Clerics... it was never written down, so that if he returned, we could be sure it was Kahless." ::* Firstly, the script notes establish that "''KOROTH is the Head Cleric in charge of Boroth." His dialogue and body language support the script note, and his indication that those present are "in on it" were also the High Clerics. They'd simply have to be to be able to "feed" Kahless all the information he needed to be Kahless. ::C) Gowron: "Koroth and the other "Guardians" have always opposed me. This is nothing more than a ploy for them to finally seize power." ::* This establishes that if Koroth isn't a Guardian, the others certainly other. As their leader he should be either way, but regardless, he is both per the next line. ::D) Koroth (glances at Torin, to Kahless): "We -- the Guardians [D'] -- have been awaiting your return for centuries." ::* This further establishes that there are many Guardians, and essentially that those who reside/officiate there ''are the Guardians. This also supports the fact that they are also the Followers of Kahless Worf initially spoke of. :: ::E) Worf: "I have been visiting the Klingon monastery on Boreth. I found my discussions with the clerics to be there most enlightening." ::* This is one of those things that could indicate informality of High Clerics as Clerics, or not. If there was only one High Cleric, this would be easier to determine. :: ::F) Kor: "The Emperor is a pretender, a clone of the original Kahless cooked up in a vat by ambitious clerics." ::* This kind of goes with the last entry, ie the informal or shortening of High Clerics to Clerics. Kor is obviously old and jaded, but clearly to him the "High Clerics" = "ambitious clerics". Maybe it's just the difference between a title and an occupation. :: I think, based solely on the evidence, the Followers of Kahless are those who await Kahless on Boreth. The Guardians are certainly Followers of Kahless, as they have been there waiting just as long. Somewhat speculatively, the major contrast between the two titles may simply be the clerical aspect of one, versus the clerical and also the other Worfs and Divoks off the street who soul search there. --Alan (talk) 16:10, February 28, 2019 (UTC) : I've tried to balance implied relatedness with the fact that we don't know how they connect for sure. My thinking around the differentiation of the Followers of Kahless lies in the recent quote from (excuse me for not quoting as well as you): "My son will be raised by the most devout followers of Kahless". That Ash Tyler statement is either pretty weirdly worded or suggests that only some followers are at Boreth. On another note, I completely missed "The Sword of Kahless", which does strengthen the case for clerics=high clerics a lot. (though that's the smallest and easiest to mediate ambiguity) On the whole, this is an great bit of research, but I struggle to figure out what, if any, concrete improvements you are suggesting. (this is an issue I have with your posts often, tbh, although I'm not trying to suggest the problem lies on your side). Are there concrete changes you are advocating, or is this just your take? -- Capricorn (talk) 17:10, February 28, 2019 (UTC) :: Just my take. I'm neither for nor against, but trying to be all inclusive. They all inter-relate. But is there more to the "Point of Light" reference? One could easily see that the Followers of Kahless/High Clerics, those in the underlined references I made, who made the commitment to travel to the star Kahless pointed to and remained there for centuries awaiting his return, to be pretty a devout folk. --Alan (talk) 17:18, February 28, 2019 (UTC) :: But I do believe the Guardians are more akin to the High Clerics, and that both, plus the monks and any other clerics are together certainly Followers of Kahless. --Alan (talk) 18:05, February 28, 2019 (UTC) The fundamental problem here is that these terms were all just thrown around very briefly, offhandedly, and with extremely little context. Only with Guardians we know slightly more, they are at least linked to Koroth and his plot. With the rest there's just too little information, making it a challenge to write anything at all about them. I suppose that's how these things become conflated, because it is easier. But I hope with my rewrites I've shown a viable alternative approach. Though they would have been more difficult without the Discovery info. Also, Not much more to the Point of Light quote that I can see, but here is the context anyway: Georgiou: We've settled into orbit around Boreth. Are you sure you want your boy to become a monk? Tyler: It's what L'Rell wants. Georgiou: And you? Tyler: To know where I belong, and to whom, and who belongs to me. My son will be raised by the most devout followers of Kahless. No one leaves the monastery, and no one who doesn't belong ever gets in. Then Tyler goes on to explain the kid won't know his parents bc of that, and there's no relevant info whatsoever outside of that scene. -- Capricorn (talk) 17:19, March 5, 2019 (UTC) :: I see. I personally hate the idea of having some many similar articles written about the potentially same group of people. At least with the luxury of background notes we can further establish context or explanation to state how they are similar or possibly different. The fact that we are so quick to merge so many other fictional things together on one page because their terms are similar or seem alike, when in fact we have no better idea if they should be merged or not, makes this seem rather conflicting to how we handle other stuff we don't understand. Unfortunately there isn't a "merge log" for me to immediately point to an example of such things, but having been one to merge several pages, there are far more articles out there we've had merged based on far less fact than this, based solely on vague similarities. --Alan (talk) 17:27, March 5, 2019 (UTC) I hear you on the similar articles issue, but I also don't see much of a way around it. Ultimately things like this are caused by sloppy writing, and that can't really be fixed after the fact. Regarding the redirect log, one additional perspective I can offer is that I semi-regularly encounter redirects that seem like they don't have any business being redirects because they're clearly a different, albeit related, concept. Maybe that's just me, but I've got to admit that I have turned some of them them into articles, typically without even considering if it needs to be discussed first. -- Capricorn (talk) 19:46, March 5, 2019 (UTC)